Image Credit: Robb Aldrich, Steven Winter Associates
More Musings of an Energy Nerd
If you’re aiming to reduce your carbon footprint, you’ve probably thought about installing a solar hot water system. Here’s the good news: if you have an unshaded south-facing roof, you can install a solar hot water system that will meet about half your annual hot water needs.
The bad news: the typical solar hot water system costs between $6,000 and $10,000.
ICS, Drainback, or Antifreeze?
There are three main types of solar hot water systems (also known as solar thermal systems):
- Integrated collector-storage systems;
- Drainback systems; and
- Antifreeze systems.
Integrated collector-storage (ICS) systems, also known as “batch” systems, store hot water in a roof-mounted tank above the collector. Such systems are common in Israel, Hawaii, and other warm climates where freeze damage is unlikely.
Those of us who live in frosty climates need a freeze-resistant system. To protect against freeze damage, a solar hot water system either drains all the fluid from the collector when it’s cold — the drainback approach — or circulates an antifreeze solution through the collectors.
The collectors in a drainback system are usually dry. When temperature sensors indicate that the sun is shining, a control activates a pump which circulates water through the collector pipes. Later, when the control senses that the sun has gone away, all of the water in the collectors is automatically drained to a “drainback tank” — a special tank, separate from the home’s hot-water storage tank, that holds the collector water. The next day, when the sun comes out again, the water from the drainback tank is again circulated through the collectors. Whenever the pump is operating, hot water from the collectors circulates through a heat exchanger to raise the temperature of the water in the main storage tank.
Propylene Glycol Antifreeze
The second way to make a solar hot…
Weekly Newsletter
Get building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.
This article is only available to GBA Prime Members
Sign up for a free trial and get instant access to this article as well as GBA’s complete library of premium articles and construction details.
Start Free TrialAlready a member? Log in
32 Comments
The web site
The web site http://www.builditsolar.com is a great resource for DIY solar projects, including a solar water heater the author built for around $1,000.
Some caveats
Fred,
I admire do-it-yourself projects. But anyone attempting to build the system described on the "builditsolar" Web site should know:
- Many people have experimented with large storage tanks built of EPDM and plywood. While some of these are successful, many others have been plagued by leaks. You don't want a huge water tank in your basement to begin leaking.
- The DIY system uses several plastic components, including PEX and black polyethylene pipe, in the homemade solar thermal system. These components may fail at high temperatures.
There's nothing wrong with backyard tinkering. But most people will find that commercial collectors and commercial water tanks are less hassle and much more long-lived than homemade components.
Hot2O
Martin,
Do you have any knowledge of or experience with the Hot2o system by Fafco? (http://www.hot2o.com) It was featured in Fine Homebuilding back in 2007, and I've kept it in the back of my mind ever since.
I like many aspects of their system, but I haven't actually seen it in operation or talked to anyone who has used it or installed it.
Thanks,
Jason
Fafco plastic collector
Jason,
I reviewed Fafco's Hot2O plastic solar collector for the May 2007 issue of Energy Design Update. Fafco promotes the plastic collectors as part of an inexpensive one-tank system. Here's an excerpt from the EDU review:
“[According to] Jay Burch, a senior scientist at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, … 'If you have a one-tank system where the second [electric] heating element is not turned off, the system will perform poorly. Even if the thermostat is at low setting -- say, 105 degrees or so -- that’s still a pretty high starting point. If you can’t turn the lower element off, then you might as well just forget it. And if you do turn the lower element off, you take a hit in terms of available hot water when there is no solar availability. With a 40-gallon tank, you have about 35 gallons of more or less hot water. But if you turn off the lower element, you won’t have the volume of hot water sitting there, and on a cloudy series of days, you’ll only have 10 or 15 gallons of hot water. Consumers will have problems with that. Of course, if you have a gas water heater, you will always have to go to a two-tank system.'
"Other possible disadvantages to the Fafco Hot2o system:
- According to Fafco, the plastic collectors are expected to last only 12 to 15 years.
- Water circulating through an unglazed plastic collector doesn’t get as hot as water circulating through a conventional glazed collector. While glazed collectors can easily heat water to 190 or 200 degrees, “The Hot2o can heat water up to 150 degrees,” according to Doug Kohl, a representative from Fafco’s public relations firm.
- In some areas of the country, the limited heat that can be extracted from Hot2o’s collectors may not justify the cost of the electricity required to circulate water through the collectors."
Nice recap
Thanks for the overview of Solar thermal. In case you aren't aware of it, Velux has a nice, simple flat plate system that attaches to the roof with their well established skylight flashing system, making them less likely to leak initially and eliminating the need to remove the collectors when reroofing. <a
Solutions to removing collector for reroofing
Velux (yes the skylight manufacturer) has a collector that flashes under the roofing material like a skylight but without the hole in the roof deck. I am going to be fitting one in a few weeks. I think that it looks better too this way.
I'm considering having the collector frame spray painted to match the roofing tiles. The roofing tiles are a world first -- recycled TPO synthetic slates (like EcoStar - but by Authentic roof) but this is the first batch ever in a light color with infrared reflective pigment. Maybe I'll submit a blog entry for this.
There's the other solution to reroofing problem - use a roofing material that won't need replacing before the collector. The slates should last over 50 years.
Velux collectors
Carl and Mark,
It's interesting that you both mentioned the Velux collectors, which are being fairly heavily promoted and advertised these days. I haven't actually seen these — I've just seen the literature. I think the jury is still out on how these units will perform.
Tom Lane, the author of Solar Hot Water Systems, is a fun author to read because he's a cantankerous, opinionated curmudgeon who also knows his business. At the end of his book, he has a two-page chapter called "The Worst Solar Hot Water Ideas of the Last 25 Years." Among these bad ideas are collectors flashed to the roofing — in other words, Velux-style collectors. Lane calls these collectors "integrated roof collectors." (Kind of like building-integrated PV — he's talking about roof-integrated solar thermal collectors.) Here's what Lane writes: "Integrated Roof Collectors — A Service Nightmare. Difficult to weather-seal, often impossible or extremely difficult for service and maintenance. During stagnation temperatures, there is a possibility of charcoaling the roof trusses and setting the house on fire. [In contrast,] Collectors mounted on aluminum rails 1 1/2" off the roof will have a pleasing appearance without these issues. Integrated collectors cost more and can leak into the attic."
Solar water heaters for an avg. family of 4 persons in 3rd World
I am interested to work out a system for an average family of 4 persons (to max 8 persons) living in Third World countries — Africa, Middle East, India, Afghanistan, Pakistan. The cost of 100-liter water heaters ranges from $125 to $150 (made in China). The remaining cost of installation varies.
I understand it is a simple hot water arrangement to bath and kitchen, and the temps range from -4 degrees C to 45 degrees C.
These areas have plenty of sun throughout the year.
Please guide me — What can be a system to provide heating throughout the year for these low-income people?
Velux review
We installed one of the Velux collectors in a house last year. It was an absolute dream to install, we cut BIG holes for the plumbing connections and once the collector was racked to the roof and flashed and shingled in we went below and made all the connections in the shade standing on staging we had set up in the roof trusses.
It's a propylene glycol system and here in NC I'm partial to drain-backs due to summer over-heating issues and the need to run the circulator at night (if the storage is over 170 at 2:00 am) to cool the storage tank and keep the system from steaming off when the family goes on vacation. But the install is so elegant that I'm tempted to use it for all domestic hot water only situations with no radiant heat assist implementation.
The collector intake and output are both located at the top of the panel where work space is more ergonomically convenient (a feature I've always appreciated with the tube collectors but which could create a serious problem with steaming off after a hurricane where you would have an extended clear sky power failure.) The connections from the control module to the panels is made with pre assembled corrugated flex hose with unions on both ends so there is no soldering required in the propylene glycol lines. Line sets are available at different lengths for different roof configurations. The storage tank is 80 gallon with a coil-in-tank heat exchanger.
I prefer a dual pump (drain-back) set-up with a flat plate heat exchanger like the Solar Hot (www.solarhotusa.com) but this is a very solid and durable solution for the average suburban application where looks, durability, ease of maintenance and speed of installation are more critical than lowest first cost and most BTUs per square foot of collector area.
Another solution to vacation overheating
Michael,
Thanks for the very interesting review. Here's what I did to address vacation overheating: I installed two tees, above and below the vertical check valve that normally prevents nighttime thermosyphoning. The tees are connected to create a bypass around the check valve; there's a ball valve in the bypass. This is my "vacation bypass" valve. The ball valve is opened when I leave during the summer, to allow natural thermosyphoning to occur at night. The glycol in the loop is heated by water in the storage tank; cooled in the collectors; and in turn cools the stored water. No electricity needed.
The detail came from Tom Lane's book.
Tom Lane solution
Nice trick! I can see that this would work with a coil-in tank system, Maybe with a two pump flat plate system but I think the Velux detail where the intake and output both come out of the top of the collector would possibly create a thermal dam, still worth a try. I'll see what Dan Gretch has to say on this one.
Velux
Martin - Interesting that Tom Lane calls integrated panels difficult to weather seal since the Velux panels use the same flashing systems that have worked incredibly well on skylights for many decades. I can't see how they could be more difficult to maintain than rack mounted systems, particularly since you can reroof around them without removing them, certainly much easier than rack mounted systems that have to be taken off the roof.
Also, his position that rack mounted collectors have a "pleasing appearance" is very subjective. Personally I prefer the look of integrated panels, although I appreciate his concerns about overheating the roof structure.
Velux flashing
Carl,
To be fair to Tom Lane, his book was published before Velux began distributing their collectors in the U.S. Lane was apparently reacting to collectors that were "roof-integrated" by builders who installed improvised flashing systems and site-built details. I'm sure the Velux flashing system is a lot slicker than the details that influenced Lane's opinion.
Thanks for the clarification
But it still doesn't mean I will be fair.
Hi,
I'm Gary from Build It
Hi,
I'm Gary from Build It Solar -- since my system was mentioned above, I thought I would add my 2 cents in.
Very nice summary of solar water heating systems.
On your comments on my system (the $1K Solar water heating system) I'll disagree a little on some of the points you made.
- All of the data I've been able to find on EPDM lined tanks that are limited to temperature below 170F has been good. There are several commercial makers of EPDM lined tanks, and they seem to have a good track record. I have heard from people who installed these tanks in the 80's and are still on the first liner! As far a leak potential, I think that the system really has less leak potential that conventional systems that use solar storage tanks that are pressurized. The non-pressurized tank in my system can leak out its full 160 gallons, but no more, since its not connected to the water supply. A conventional pressurized solar storage tank is connected to the water mains, and could leak thousands of gallons of water if you happen to be away.
- The system does use PEX tubing and also uses a pump that is only rated to 140F, but the differential controller is set to limit the tank temperature to a maximum of 140F. The PEX and the pump are very high quality components as long as the temperature limits are observed. These choices allow significant saving in system initial cost without any compromise on system life -- thats what good design is about.
I think the system goes a bit beyond backyard tinkering. I'm a retired product development engineer, and I put the same kind of care and testing into developing this system as I did products back a Boeing. You can have a look at all the testing work that was done leading up to this design here: http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PEXColDHW/RoadMap.htm
The goal was to do a system that was substantially less costly without compromises in materials, life, maintenance, or performance. And, to do a system that will perform year round in harsh climates with good performance.
I think that you really hit the nail on the head when you pointed out that solar water heating systems cost $6000 to $10000. This initial cost is so high that its very unlikely that these systems will be widely adopted -- most people simple won't spend $8000 to save a few hundred dollars a year.
My aim was to dramatically cut the initial cost without cutting the life, quality, or performance.
If I can do it, I see no reason why there can't be commercial product that achieves the same thing.
Gary
Hi Gary
Gary: I'm a frequent reader of your site (builditsolar.com). It is one of my favorites.
Yep costs are much higher for professionally installed packaged systems. I'm doing DIY. I've also got 3 old collectors that I plan to ground mount and use some ideas from your site - like do that as drain back to an unpressurized home built tank. That will be in addition to the Velux on the roof.
Martin: As for flashed collectors risk of charring the deck -- I'll check with Velux product manager (I've got his number). I have the option of installing 0.5" foil faced polyiso under mine since I'll like add 0.5" of ply to the surrounding deck (for other reasons).
If you look at my site: netzeroenergy.org you will see that I am a fan of Building Integrated Solar. But I do acknowledge that the risks are higher -- you really don't want a wiring fault with BIPV or a leak with building integrated solar thermal.
But you have to admit my roof with the BIPV looks nice!
Alternative stagnation solution
If the controller supports it (if not use a snap disc on the tank), then upon stagnation temperature alarm, operate a valve to dump hot water from the storage tank to a drain (or return of my geothermal).
Of course no problems with drain back. But I like the Velux collector which is not compatible with drain back, and I didn't want noise from drain back above my bedroom. That nice trickling sound would induce too many bathroom visits!
An example of a leaking tank
Gary,
Thanks very much for your comments, and congratulations on building a solar thermal system that works for you.
One example of a leaking EPDM-lined tank was the first solar storage tank built by Eric Doub of Boulder, Colorado. (Doub is a GBA advisor and a pioneer builder of net-zero-energy homes.) I interviewed Doub about his experiences building a 6,000-gallon site-built tank in his basement. Here's what I wrote in the September 2006 issue of Energy Design Update:
Doub now uses recycled stainless-steel dairy tanks (bulk milk tanks) for solar storage.
One question: with your system, what happens when your storage tank reaches 140°? You tell us that "the differential controller is set to limit the tank temperature to a maximum of 140°F," but you don't tell us where or how the heat is dumped.
My stainless-steel storage tank is able to handle water that is 180°F or 190°F. It's great to make use of extended sunny weather to increase the temperature of the water in my storage tank. I'd hate to have to begin dumping heat at 140°F.
stagnation
Hi Martin,
On the tank, it sounds like in the initial installation they might not have taken enough care to prepare a smooth surface for the tank liner? You have to have a smooth surface, and its also very important to make certain that the epdm lies flat against the tank wall before adding water-- if there are areas where the epdm bridges across a tank corner, it will be stretched when the tank is filled. 6000 gallons is one very big tank! -- my domestic water heating tank is 160 gallons, and space heating tank is 500 gallons.
My controller has the max tank temperature switch set to 140F, so the pump is not turned on any more once the tank gets to 140F temperature. Since its a drain back system, all of the water in the collector and plumbing drain back to the storage tank at this point -- there is no fluid in the collector. So, the collector itself is the only part of the system that is exposed to the stagnation temperatures. My feeling is that collectors have to be designed for stagnation anyway, because at some point in the life of the system they will be exposed to stagnation temperatures. For most people this will occur whenever they go on vacation and there is no demand. Even if you have a heat dump, at some point in the life of the system there will be a failure that will expose the collector to stagnation.
Since there is no fluid in the collector, and the system is not closed or pressurized, there are no worries about boiling water in the collectors and blowing pressure/temperature relief valves and making big green puddles. This approach is pretty common in drain back systems.
My feeling is that if you have a somewhat more than the amount of storage used in most commercial systems, that there is no real benefit in going above 140F on storage. In the winter, when it would be nice to have water above 140F to cover the possibility of a week of stormy weather, the few hours of sun and low ambient temperatures keep you from getting the tank above 140 anyway. In the summer when there is lots of sun and warmer temps is easy to get the tank above 140F, but there is no real benefit in that there is so much sun that extra heat you store from 140 to 180 is not needed. At least, that has been our experience -- I've monitored the performance of the system for a full year now, and the solar fraction is above 95% with the 140F limit.
Gary
Measuring solar fraction
Gary,
How do you measure solar fraction?
Do you have a flow meter on your domestic hot water supply pipe?
Have you logged the temperature of your domestic hot water supply?
How do you measure fuel use when your solar equipment provides 100°F water, and your backup system raises the temperature of that water to, say, 130°F?
How do you measure fuel used for backup? Have you separated out that fuel use from other usages using the same fuel in your house?
Very few homeowners have the monitoring equipment to accurately measure solar fraction.
solar fraction
Hi Martin,
I log the storage tank temperature.
I also log collector, tank bottom, solar radiation, supply and return to collector, but the only one I use for the solar fraction calculation is the tank temperature near the top.
I use an incoming cold water temperature of 50F -- I've measured this a number of times, and its always pretty close to this. Our water comes from a 240 ft deep well, and its temperature does not vary much.
Our target hot water temp is 110F. I know this is a little low for some people, but its what we use, and works fine for us. The dishwasher heats it above that for dish sanitation. I don't account for the heat the DW adds in the solar fraction calc, but I suspect most solar fraction calculations don't.
So, I do solar fraction as (Tstor - 50F)/(110F - 50F) .
So, to get 100% solar fraction for a day, the Tstor has to be at least 110F.
If Tstor is 100F, then the solar has heated the water from 50F up to 90F, or 40F out of the required 60F for a solar fraction of (90F-50F)/(110F - 50F) = 0.67 or 67%.
At the end of the month, I plot the tank temperature and do this solar fraction calc for the afternoon of each day (this is when our major hot water demands are) -- I average all the days, and thats the solar fraction for the month.
The heat exchanger on my system stores enough water within the heat exchanger itself at full tank temperature that there is no heat exchanger drop to account for -- the 12 gallons of water in the heat exchanger is already up to full tank temp. If the draw is more than 12 gallons (very very unusual for us), then the there is a small temp drop through the heat exchanger coil that is not accounted for.
Our backup heater is a small gas tankless heater. It only fires when the storage tank temp is less than 110F to bring it up to 110F. It is completely turned off most of the year, because its just not needed -- in these months, the solar tank temp never drops below 110F. I don't account for the fact that the tankless is only 85% efficient, but with a solar fraction over 90%, how much difference can that really make?
You can see the plots for nearly a full year here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PEXColDHW/Performance.htm
I don't account for the power used by the circulation pump, but its only 13 watts, so its really not going to make any significant difference (a couple hundred BTU per day).
Our hot water demands are modest (probably about 22 gallons a day), and we don't set our hot water target temp relatively (110F). We have a system that for the size of our demand has both more collector area and more storage than most commercial systems would be sized for. The tilt of the collectors is 70+ degrees and there is a reflective snow field in front of the collectors -- this optimizes winter collection, which is where most systems don't do so well. So, basically the system is oversized and optimized for good winter performance -- this is basically why our year round solar fraction is high.
With the cost of adding a few more square feet of collector area at $5 per sqft and another 50 or so gallons of storage at almost no cost, it seems to make sense to oversize the system compared to the "normal" ground rules?
Gary
Your calculations are only approximate
Gary,
I admire your data collection, but your calculation of solar fraction are only approximate. You have pointed out a few issues yourself: for example, you fail to account for pump energy use (which Robb Aldrich's study has shown to be a significant factor in most solar thermal systems).
Moreover, you fail to account for actual gallons of hot water drawn; nor do you account for the temperature of the tank at the time the water is drawn. If five gallons of hot water are drawn at 7:00 a.m., then you assume that the temperature of the water in the solar storage tank is the same as in late afternoon, which is unlikely.
Moreover, you fail to account for the possibility that some large water draws may be made at a time when the temperature of your solar storage tank is less than its peak temperature, whereas the gallons drawn in late afternoon may (on some days) be few.
An accurate calculation would require a flow meter to measure the gallons of water used; temperature logging of hot water at the time of use; and logging of gas consumption used for your backup heater.
I certainly realize that such measurements are difficult — which is why there is a dearth of good data on solar fraction. I admire your calculations; but it's important to point out to readers that your solar fraction is far higher than published data from monitored systems, and this discrepancy is probably due to the fact that your calculations are only approximate.
solar fraction
Hi Martin,
The pump power is 13 watts (a very efficient pump). If it runs 6 hours on a typical day, thats (13*6) watt hours, or 266 BTU. During that time the system collects about (48 sf)(250 BTU/sf)(0.5 efic)(6 hours) = 36000 BTU, so not accounting for the pump is about 266/36000 = 0.007 or 0.7% of the collected energy.
This small efficient DC pump can easily be run off a small PV panel if the 0.7% if important is worth it to anyone.
The tank is large, and does not change in temperature that much over the course of a day, so whether you make the solar fraction calculation at the exact time of a draw or in the afternoon (when we use most of our hot water) would really make little difference. The typical drop in tank temperature from the afternoon peak to the next morning low is about 8F, and on the great majority of days, it never drops below the 110F we set as our hot water target temp, so no backup energy is used no mater when in the day a draw is made. Most of the year the backup heater is completely turned off.
Our water draws are quite predictable, and that combined with the fact that the tank temperature changes very slowly makes it extremely unlikely that a large draw would be made when the tank temperature is low -- at quick look at the temperature plots would convince you of this.
There really is no need for a flow meter if the tank temperature does not change much during a day -- just assuming that all water is drawn at a fixed time is an perfectly adequate assumption.
The aim of logging the system and estimating the solar fraction is not to get the solar fraction down to the nearest half percent -- its to show that a homeowner built system that costs 1/8 th of a typical commercial system can perform at levels equal to or better than most commercial systems do. Oversizing the collection area and storage volume while optimizing tilt angle for winter performance allow this system to perform through the winter at solar fraction levels near 90% when most commercial systems sized to the usual rules and collector tilt angles are happy to be at 50%.
Gary
Very useful DIY tips
My husband and I have been contemplating try to build a solar hot water system. Your tips and comments are very useful. I also work with people looking to use green mortgages to finance their home purchase and solar projects. I will direct those who are interested in a solar hot water system to this article.
Question about EPDM Liner used in Gary's Tank
Gary,
I've tried contacting you on your site.. but not heard anything back.. then i saw your postings here and thought i'd try to contact you here. I've started a Solar Tank using your Design. I have the collectors built and have bought the controller, But when i went to buy the EPDM Liner.. i can't find any listed for solar tanks. They have them listed for roof, ponds, canals, etc.. Is there a difference in these.. or is EPDM the same for all.. and I didn't see where you told what thickness you used...45ml or .60ml.. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
hybrid flat plate + evacuated tube collector systems
Martin,
Do you have an opinion on SHW systems that use a flat plate collector in combination with an evacuated tube collector? (described in Home Power HP135, Feb-Mar 2010, pp 82-86 - "SHW Retrofit")? I'm looking for a SHW system for new construction in MA.
Thanks!
re: Question about EPDM Liner used in Gary's Tank
Hi -- Sorry I missed your comment, and I suppose this is too late to help.
I use the same EPDM that is used for landscape pool liners or roofing. Its sold in many places -- here in Bozeman even the Home Depot has it.
The stuff I use is 45 mil.
Don't know why I did not get your email -- I make a point of answering every email I get.
Gary
Fafco Hot2o system
I installed the Fafco system in July of 2008 and have been very happy with it. It's no secret it's not going to be as efficient as tubes or many other systems, it is relatively cheap and easy to install. I felt good about at least having a solar project going. With a water heater for a storage tank and other odds and ends I have about $2500 in it, less the tax rebate and it was about $1700. Here in central PA it's not real effective in the winter months. I have seen it run with the temps in the 20's, but it has it's limits to what it can do in cold. For me this is not an issue as I have a water heating coil in my coal stove.
Solar & Wood Stove DHW
Martin,
In this blog you briefly describe your own DHW production system which involves both solar and a wood stove. We are designing our new home and would like to incorporate a similar approach to DHW. Could you point us in the right direction for additional design/installation methods? Do you also have a 'back up' tank (electric resistance or the like?) Any feedback is appreciated, Heidi
Response to Heidi Davis
Heidi,
1. As I wrote in the blog, the best book on designing and installing a solar hot water system is Solar Hot Water Systems by Tom Lane. If you haven't bought the book yet, be sure to buy it.
2. My system includes a stainless-steel storage tank (a SuperStor tank) with an integral heat-exchange coil.
3. Installation of a coil in your wood stove can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing, because these systems can explode. Your system will need at least 2 P&T relief valves, properly installed, and knowledgeable homeowners who don't accidentally turn any valves off at the wrong time. If you aren't sure how to install such a system, you shouldn't do it.
4. Yes, I have a backup system -- an Aquastar 125S propane-fired instantaneous water heater.
Tom Lane's book
Tom Lane's book is probably the most comprehensive, complete, detailed and exhaustive guide available on the subject. That being said, it is, in my opinion, one of the worst edited books I've been through in my life. It is totally disorganized, non-pedagogical, non-structured and confusing books there might exist on earth. For a beginner just needing an introduction, I would go for the much more user friendly Bob Ramlow's book. Anyway, I am still looking forward to find a Solar Water Heating book which is exhaustive, friendly and detailed.
Response to Jose Castro
Jose,
Tom Lane's book is self-published, and that fact is obvious to readers. Since I am an editor, I agree with your book review. Editors have their uses, and when authors publish books without an editor's help, the results can be mixed.
Log in or become a member to post a comment.
Sign up Log in